Talk:Ziryab

The last word on his ancestry

As a professional historian who has actually read the earliest sources for 'Ali b. Nafi' Ziryab (in the original Arabic) and compared them to what nonspecialists claim, I can assure you that the sources (as opposed to nonspecialist resources like Britannica, as well as professional historians who have not actually read the sources, like James T. Monroe and Maria Rosa Menocal) support the following conclusions:

1) Ziryab's name may have been Persian in origin but he was known in the generations immediately after his time (i.e. by people who probably knew him or knew people who had known him) as a black slave (Ar: عبد أسود ) who had been owned and freed by either Ishaq al-Mawsili or Ishaq's father, Ibrahim. He was not Persian by ethnicity. His name is said to have meant "blackbird" because of his color and his beautiful voice. (Indeed, al-Isfahani mentions the name of a black female singer named Ziryab who lived in Baghdad at roughly the same time as Ali b. Nafi'.)

2) Ziryab probably did not "add a fifth string" to the oud/lute. If you look at the tonal arrangement of the four traditional strings, the logical place to put a fifth string was not in the middle (where there was not a large enough gap in the tunings to permit another string – imagine putting a 7th string on a guitar between the D and G strings), as is claimed for Ziryab, but either above the high string or below the low string. The descriptions of the oud in al-Kindi's treatise on music do not suggest that the middle string was in any way outside the tonal arrangement of the instrument as a whole.

3) Ziryab's biography as it is usually retold was largely an aggrandizing fiction probably concocted first by one of Ziryab's relatives, Aslam b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, edited by the later historian Ibn Hayyan in the 11th century, and then edited again by the historian Shihab al-Din al-Maqqari in the 17th century. Many references by earlier sources to Ziryab's rough personality are ignored, and most of what is attributed to him is not mentioned at all in the earliest sources for him by Ibn Abi Tahir Tayfur (d. 893, i.e. within 40 years of Ziryab), Ibn 'Abd Rabbih (d. 940, i.e. within a century of Ziryab), Abu l-Faraj al-Isfahani (d. 967), and Ibn al-Qutiyya (d. 977).

The two most reliable modern historians for Ziyab are Carl Davila and Dwight Reynolds. They are recognized among professionals as having the proper grasp on the sources.

All the Persian-language sources that are usually cited to support Ziryab's Persian ancestry are very, very late – dating no earlier than the 14th century. As historians, we are bound to rely much more heavily on sources that come very close to the person's lifetime.

Cheers. Anne Actualhistorian (talk) 07:46, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Ancestry redux

Sorry to show up so late in the party, but I just read this vituperative debate about Ziryab's origins. I noted that of the five citations purportedly supporting the claim that he was of Persian origin, two (the Encyclopedia Britannica citation and the book by Grajter) nowhere assert that he was born in Persia. One (Monroe) refers to him as a "Persian musician" which is indisputably true in the sense that he was, like his teacher Al Mawsili, a singer in the Persian style; but that does not mean that he was originally from Persia. Only two of the citations refer to him as a "Persian", and they, too, seem to be talking about his style of singing, not necessarily his ethnicity.

The problem with these citations may be that the links point to the wrong places. So, whoever put these citations there, please check the links. If they are not corrected in the next few days, I think we should probably delete the erroneous citations.

Regards,

--Ravpapa (talk) 13:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure Britannica is not considered a RS either. --Semsûrî (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I think you are being sarcastic, but I will answer seriously. First of all, Britannica is certainly a reliable source. Secondly, you are correct (somewhat) that the title of the webpage on the link provided is indeed "Ziryab Persian Musician". However, there is nothing in the text cited that suggests that Ziryab was born in Persia; indeed, the text cited is not a biography of Ziryab, but a passing reference to him in a general article about Arabic music. And, as I noted in my first post, Ziryab was indisputably a Persian musician, in the sense that the style of music he learned and played was Persian. I therefore don't think you can use this citation to support the statement that Ziryab was born in Persia.

Please note that I am not suggesting we change the text in any way. I am only suggesting that we remove footnotes that do not actually support the claim, and leave only those citations that are relevant.

--Ravpapa (talk) 12:13, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

This seems like pure WP:OR conclusions, none of the RS sources talk about his style. Also, Semsuri is correct; Britannica is not WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

(1)Semsuri is not correct and neither are you. Britannica is a reliable source. The latest discussion of this issue is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_281#Britannica.com

(2) when you say this seems pure WP:OR, do you mean the conclusion that the encyclopedia is referring to his birthplace or that it is referring to his style? Either one is OR - aside from the two words "Persian Musician" the article gives no details either way. So you are right, either conclusion is OR, and that is precisely why the reference should be deleted.

(3) You and Semsuri seem passionate about keeping this dubious reference, and I don't feel that strongly about it. In my view, including references to a statement that do not in fact support the statement only makes that statement more questionable. There are other sources listed that specifically support the statement, and they of course should remain. But, hey, if that's the way you feel, go for it. I take it all back.

--Ravpapa (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Britannica, see [1]. When I say this seems to be pure WP:OR, I'm referring to your conclusions - this looks like WP:JDLI to me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

You are relying on a discussion on a user page that is five years old. I am referring to the reliable sources notice board, which is the authoritative place to discuss the issue of reliability, to a discussion of only a few months ago.

But why am I arguing? If you think it is an unreliable source, then we should by all means remove it. I will do so, since we agree. I will also remove footnote number four, which certainly does not assert that Ziryab was Persian. I will leave the others, even though I think that two of the three are dubious.

--Ravpapa (talk) 16:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Be it ten years old, it is still quite relevant. Restored footnote number four, as it literally says he may have been Persian. The very footnote is used for the Kurdish and Arab origin suggestion as well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Image

@AvidHistorian1: Take your concerns here. Did you read WP:PORTRAIT? HistoryofIran (talk) 15:31, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes that still isnt a valid reason to delete it. AvidHistorian1 (talk) 15:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Care to elaborate why? HistoryofIran (talk) 15:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

And you reverted again, once again accusing me of doing to this due to my POV [2]. Give me one good reason to not report you right now. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:35, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Because I literally broke no rules. You randomly came about, saying its copyrighted (which I debunked) then u bring up some page (which i debunked again) and now ur trying to report me. Go ahead because it wont be accepted you broke the rules of vandalization and I’ll be reporting you too. AvidHistorian1 (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

You still haven't explained why WP:PORTRAIT is not valid. And you have violated WP:ASPERSIONS, engaging in WP:EDITWARRING and ignore WP:CONSENSUS. And you can't even name one rule that I "broke". Moreover, you don't seem to understand how copyright works. By all means, please report me right now if you're so confident. Moreover, I can see you removed sourced info to try to portray Ziryab only as African [3], pretty rich of you to accuse me of pov pushing. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@AvidHistorian1: You still have not explained why WP:PORTRAIT is not valid. Just because the image will soon get deleted, doesn't mean you can get away with violating multiple policies. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I've restored the image, since you are blatantly ignoring this discussion, and have only engaged in attacks. If you want it restored, you will have to reach WP:CONSENSUS. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

And if you actually read the article, you would see that Ziryab's origins are disputed. This has nothing to do what I consider to be the correct theory. You are persistently engaging in WP:ASPERSIONS. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)